Job
I’ve heard a lot of Christians say that because of the story of Job in the Bible that they believe a loving, gentle, kind, forgiving, merciful, graceful GOD – our Father - would give us illnesses and hurt us to teach us a lesson. I find that idea and belief abominable.
If that be the case, then if a Dad reached over and broke his child’s arm to teach him not to throw a ball in the house, I would be out of line to reproach the Dad, to try to prevent him doing so, to even report him to the police. If GOD hurts us and makes us ill as a lesson to us, then we have no right to expect good things from anyone who loves us.
The “I’ll make you sick or hurt you because I love you GOD” is not the GOD of the Bible. Even in the story of Job, which Christianity loves to point at and say, “See! There’s my biblical backing!” GOD’s character is misrepresented (to say the least) as a foundation to stand on for that erroneous “GOD who hurts us” belief.
So, let’s look at the Bible story of Job to see what kind of alleged “foundation” they think they have.
In Job 1:1 Job is described as a “blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil”. Even GOD said about Job that “there is none like him on the earth” (vs.8), and it is reiterated that he is “blameless and upright” and that he “fears God and shuns evil”. Does that sound like someone GOD would hurt to teach him a lesson? If so, what kind of lesson does Job need to learn? What wrong was Job doing that he had to be taught a lesson? Or, in the opinion of the Christians who make this claim, does GOD teach Job a lesson without Job needing a lesson, in GOD’s own opinion?
If you read what is written there, the Bible says that GOD was talking to our mortal enemy, Satan, and that GOD was standing up for Job. Why would GOD do that if he wanted to teach Job a lesson? No, what was actually happening is that GOD was saying to our enemy that if he looked at Job he would find someone who would not be destroyed by our enemy. GOD said, “Have you considered my servant Job…?” (1:8).
In verses 10-11, Satan replies that there was a “hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side” so why would Satan consider attacking Job because GOD protected him so much? Satan went on to say that if GOD “stretched out [His] hand and touch[ed] all that he [Job] has” that Job would “surely curse” GOD to His face.
To this GOD responded in 1:12 that everything Job had was in Satan’s power, with the exception that Satan could not touch Job himself. Why would GOD do this? To prove to Satan that there are faithful people who will not turn away from GOD, who will not curse GOD, who will not fall away from GOD or from belief in Him, if bad things happen to them! It wasn’t a test, a lesson, or an attack on Job: it was a lesson to Satan!
Look at everything Satan took from Job in verses 13-22: his oxen and all but one servant with them (vs 15); his sheep and all but one of the servants with them (vs 16); his camels and all but one of his servants who were with them (vs 17); his children and all but one of the servants with them (vs 19). What does Job do?
In verses 20-22 we see Job’s response to Satan’s attack: Job “arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head and he fell to the ground and worshipped.” Who did Job worship: Satan, who took everything away from him, or GOD, who still loved Job and allowed all of this to happen to him because GOD chose to teach Satan a lesson? Job worshipped GOD. GOD was proven correct in trusting Job. In verse 22 we see “In all this Job did not sin nor charge GOD with wrong.”
That’s something that should have impressed Satan, but apparently it wasn’t enough. In 2:1 there was another meeting of the “sons of GOD” and Satan again showed up.
GOD asked Satan where he came from (2:2) and Satan replied “From going to and fro on the earth and from walking back and forth on it.”
Then -- absolutely certain that Job would be faithful -- GOD again pointed to Job (poor, faithful Job) and asked if Satan had “considered [His] servant, Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears GOD and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (vs3).
See what it says: Job “still” held “fast to his integrity” and that he was a “blameless and upright man” who feared GOD. Does that sound like Job needed a lesson taught to him, or does it sound more like GOD has faith in Job and in the fact that – even though the first time Job was used to teach Satan a lesson it devastated his life – GOD was absolutely certain that Job could be trusted in his faithfulness, his uprightness, his blamelessness?
GOD may seem harsh here, picking on Job again, but think of what it is saying about Job that GOD has so much faith in him. Job was a favorite of GOD’s. However, being GOD’s favorite doesn’t mean that your life will be easy as breathing. Consider Mary, mother of Christ, who was another favorite of GOD’s and who was chosen as a young teen to bare GOD’s “only Begotten Son” – while single, but betrothed and who had to face the slings and arrows of the town gossips, the accusations of town people, her future in-laws, etc. David was a favorite of GOD’s, but when he messed up, having an affair with Bathsheba and fathering a child with her then ensuring her husband’s death, the child he fathered in that affair died. Although GOD’s favor was still upon David, the baby died. That’s not an easy thing to endure, but David understood it and cleaned himself up and worshipped GOD after the child died (2 Samuel 12).
In GOD’s second time of telling Satan to “consider” Job, Satan was told that Job was in Satan’s hand “but spare his life”. Satan was allowed to do anything to Job he wanted, but he could not kill him. Job wound up with boils “from the souls of his feet to the crown of his head.” Job used a potsherd to scrape the boils from his skin and he went and sat in ashes and his wife told him to “curse God and die” (2:9)! That’s pretty harsh. It’s also what a lot of people would do in the same situation. His children are dead, his cattle, camels and sheep are gone, along with the servants that were with them. His wife is all that’s left and his wife tells him to turn his back on GOD and die! Harsh!
Look at what Job did instead. In 2:10 we read that Job stood up for GOD; “‘Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?’ In all this Job did not sin with his lips.”
Even when Job’s friends came and accused him of having some sort of sin in his life – apparently they hadn’t heard GOD’s opinion of Job – Job lamented his own conception and birth (chapter 3) but he didn’t lament GOD’s touch on his life. In the coming chapters we see Job’s “friends” (with friends like these…) telling Job he is claiming to be “innocent” (4:7), but he can’t be if GOD is doing this bad stuff to him. Job has to deserve this kind of treatment for something that is hidden. Eliphaz goes so far as to say that he saw a vision in a dream that said that no one can claim to “be more pure than his Maker” (4:17), which Job, so far, hadn’t claimed to be!
His friends go on and on and on about how Job must have done something – anything – to deserve this punishment from GOD: he must be guilty, but denying it. Job defends himself against their accusations (as did GOD’s statements to Satan regarding Job), and Job answered them and defended himself in chapters 6-7, 9-10, 12-14, 16-17, 19, 21, 23-24, and 26-31, the youngest “friend” standing up and berating Job for six chapters (32-38).
Job 32:1 says, “So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.” Is that a bad thing? Remember, GOD considered Job a “blameless and upright man” of whom there were “none like in all the earth”. I think that Job was just agreeing with GOD and that’s a good thing to do! (“Where two or more agree as touching anything…” Job and GOD in agreement are two or more, correct?)
In the end of the book we see GOD speaking out of the whirlwind and asking Job questions that there is no way he can say “Yes, I can”, or “Yes, I am” to. But listen to the questions and they could just as easily be directed at Job’s three “friends”, too. Then, after GOD is finished questioning Job, what happens? Is it then that Job is punished? Is it then that – after saying he was more righteous than GOD – the Lord finally takes a whack at Job and gives him leprosy, break his leg, makes him blind, makes him have erectile dysfunction? No.
The loving, gentle, kind, forgiving, merciful, graceful GOD of the Bible does none of those things. We see what happened to a man who GOD accused to his face of claiming to be more righteous than him, GOD spoke to Job’s “friends” in 42:7-8 and ordered them to make reparations with Job and to make offerings because GOD’s “wrath is aroused against you” because “you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has (my italics).” GOD, who was supposedly punishing Job, told Job’s three friends that Job said what was right and they had not.
Adding frosting to the top of the cake, in 42:10-17 GOD restored Job’s losses after Job prayed for his friends – without GOD ordering Job to do so. GOD restored Job’s losses so much that He gave Job “fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys”, and seven sons and three daughters again and GOD made Job’s daughters very beautiful (it doesn’t say anything about the sons’ looks).
So, Christians who claim Job as “proof” that GOD punishes us with bad things happening to us, where is your proof? What lesson did Job, the "upright" and "blameless" man have to learn and where did GOD say, "Job, I did this to teach you lesson X"? Where is it that you found anything close to “proof” in Job of the GOD who punishes people and that we have to accept illnesses and pain from a loving, gentle, kind, forgiving, merciful, graceful GOD? I’d like them to show me where it is that GOD does that to His children because I truly do not see it in Job. Look at the words written there and see GOD's protection of Job, not His punishment and not a lesson for him. GOD was teaching our enemy something, not Job.
I can already hear some of you yelling, Oh, but Job suffered because of the lesson! He lost his children, but Job knew his children well enough to know that he had to do what was needed to cover them with GOD's forgiveness. He was given new children to replace those the enemy took. I won't read into Job, but maybe GOD knew something we did not? I don't know. Do you?
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© 2017 Linda McKinney All Rights Reserved
Showing posts with label "Difficult Questions". Show all posts
Showing posts with label "Difficult Questions". Show all posts
Monday, June 19, 2017
Sunday, October 16, 2016
Difficult Queston #7: Why did it have to be Jesus Christ who died for our sins?
Question: Why did it have to be Jesus Christ who died for our sins? Why could it not have been John The Baptist, or Peter, or someone similar?
We know that we are sinners. We have lied, cheated, stolen, committed sexual sins of all sorts, broken the Sabbath, blasphemed GOD, worshipped people and things that are not The One True GOD (Hollywood and internet celebrities, jobs, vehicles, families, pastimes, or possessions), and because of that we need a Savior. We need a way to prevent our eternal soul/spirit from being eternally separated from GOD and being in eternal darkness and punishment. That’s the basic message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
One of the details of that basic message, though, is that we are not good enough to save ourselves. We have done the sinning, how can we atone for that ourselves? Even if we were the ones who tried to atone for our own sins how could we do so? We are too unclean to be able to make ourselves clean again.
Consider: If you have a white sheet that you drag through the mud again and again and again and you put oil, food and all kinds of other nasty stains on it, how do you clean it? You wash it in water and detergent, perhaps adding some bleach or an “oxy” product to make it as clean as possible. If you had a “twin” to that sheet, one that had never been dragged through the mud, had never been stained with anything, and had no spot to remove and you compared the two sheets, would the muddied, stained sheet be as clean as the one that had never been so much as taken out of the package? Of course not.
You will not be able to save yourself because that dinginess that results in dragging your soul through the mud is not clean enough to allow your soul into heaven. It’s not a matter of effort on your part, you can’t try hard enough, say enough of whatever people think would be the right words, etc. It’s a matter of simply accepting the gift of Christ’s blood to wash that sheet white again because that’s the only thing that can.
You see, it’s not just you who cannot clean your own sins. There’s no mere mortal man who can pay the price for another mere mortal man. The only truly sufficient sacrifice had to be Jesus Christ because He is part GOD part man. It’s the “part GOD” part that is the answer to our need for a Savior. It could not be John The Baptist, for instance because – although he does have a wonderful story of his conception and birth – he is still just a man; a man in need of a Savior himself. He had his own stains on his own sheet, so to speak.
Jesus, having lived a sinless life in which he has no muddiness, no stains or other marks on his soul (his sheet) was the only One who could have been clean enough to have paid the price. Most people who have accepted His gift of salvation – of covering our muddy sheets with His clean one – acknowledge that He is the only one who lived a sinless life.
The question is, was that enough? What if Jesus Christ had been only man? What if He had been a man who had been able to live a sinless life: no thoughts He should not have had, done nothing He should not have done, said nothing He should not have said, etc.? What if He was just a sinless human and not part GOD? Would that have sufficed for mankind to have been saved through His sacrifice?
In a word, No. In order for the sacrifice to have been enough the only way to accomplish that was to have Jesus be part GOD, as it says in the Bible. You see, the fact is that if Jesus had not been part GOD, He could not have known the truth of the separation portion of what hell is like. Jesus experienced that on the Cross when He cried, “My GOD, my GOD why have you forsaken me?” it was then that Jesus experienced for the first time in His eternal life separation from the Father that He’d been with since before time, before the earth was formed and before anything else was made (see John 1:1-3). It was separation. GOD, His Father, had to turn His back on Jesus Christ, The Son He loved so much because it was in that separation that Jesus took upon Himself all of our sins, all of our wrongs and disobediences, and because of that GOD could not look upon it. GOD had to put away His Son so that our sin did not contaminate, pollute, corrupt Himself. True separation was experienced for the first time by the two who did not deserve it in order to allow you and I to be able to experience an eternity in heaven in their presence.
It was in that timeframe, that separation, that Jesus Christ -- who had already been scourged, mocked, beaten, crowned with a crown of thorns, and was in such pain from all of that – that He paid the final bit of the price. He had gone through the physical part of the price, now this was the spiritual portion. If He’d gone through just the rest of it that would not have been enough. It had to be true separation for the price to have been paid for you and I. In that separation is when Jesus experienced what hell was like and what we would go through when we die without Him. That’s because hell is an eternity without GOD, love, peace, forgiveness, comfort, joy, laughter, acceptance, or any chance of escape. Jesus felt that separation and that’s when He paid the price in full. When He said, “It is finished!” and gave up His soul/spirit, the price was paid in full; it was “finished”.
That’s why neither John the Baptist, nor any other mere mortal, could have paid the price for our sins. John, having never experienced true union with GOD the Father, could never have known that separation. John may have understood intellectually what it meant, but his soul could never have experienced what it was like to have had his soul separated from GOD because as a human his soul was never there to start with. His body may have died and his soul/spirit may have separated from it, but since John never spent the part of his life prior to becoming human as – and this is the important thing – part of GOD, John could not have experience the separation as did Jesus Christ because of John 1:1-3:
Won’t you accept that great gift today?
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© 2016 Linda McKinney All Rights Reserved
We know that we are sinners. We have lied, cheated, stolen, committed sexual sins of all sorts, broken the Sabbath, blasphemed GOD, worshipped people and things that are not The One True GOD (Hollywood and internet celebrities, jobs, vehicles, families, pastimes, or possessions), and because of that we need a Savior. We need a way to prevent our eternal soul/spirit from being eternally separated from GOD and being in eternal darkness and punishment. That’s the basic message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
One of the details of that basic message, though, is that we are not good enough to save ourselves. We have done the sinning, how can we atone for that ourselves? Even if we were the ones who tried to atone for our own sins how could we do so? We are too unclean to be able to make ourselves clean again.
Consider: If you have a white sheet that you drag through the mud again and again and again and you put oil, food and all kinds of other nasty stains on it, how do you clean it? You wash it in water and detergent, perhaps adding some bleach or an “oxy” product to make it as clean as possible. If you had a “twin” to that sheet, one that had never been dragged through the mud, had never been stained with anything, and had no spot to remove and you compared the two sheets, would the muddied, stained sheet be as clean as the one that had never been so much as taken out of the package? Of course not.
You will not be able to save yourself because that dinginess that results in dragging your soul through the mud is not clean enough to allow your soul into heaven. It’s not a matter of effort on your part, you can’t try hard enough, say enough of whatever people think would be the right words, etc. It’s a matter of simply accepting the gift of Christ’s blood to wash that sheet white again because that’s the only thing that can.
You see, it’s not just you who cannot clean your own sins. There’s no mere mortal man who can pay the price for another mere mortal man. The only truly sufficient sacrifice had to be Jesus Christ because He is part GOD part man. It’s the “part GOD” part that is the answer to our need for a Savior. It could not be John The Baptist, for instance because – although he does have a wonderful story of his conception and birth – he is still just a man; a man in need of a Savior himself. He had his own stains on his own sheet, so to speak.
Jesus, having lived a sinless life in which he has no muddiness, no stains or other marks on his soul (his sheet) was the only One who could have been clean enough to have paid the price. Most people who have accepted His gift of salvation – of covering our muddy sheets with His clean one – acknowledge that He is the only one who lived a sinless life.
The question is, was that enough? What if Jesus Christ had been only man? What if He had been a man who had been able to live a sinless life: no thoughts He should not have had, done nothing He should not have done, said nothing He should not have said, etc.? What if He was just a sinless human and not part GOD? Would that have sufficed for mankind to have been saved through His sacrifice?
In a word, No. In order for the sacrifice to have been enough the only way to accomplish that was to have Jesus be part GOD, as it says in the Bible. You see, the fact is that if Jesus had not been part GOD, He could not have known the truth of the separation portion of what hell is like. Jesus experienced that on the Cross when He cried, “My GOD, my GOD why have you forsaken me?” it was then that Jesus experienced for the first time in His eternal life separation from the Father that He’d been with since before time, before the earth was formed and before anything else was made (see John 1:1-3). It was separation. GOD, His Father, had to turn His back on Jesus Christ, The Son He loved so much because it was in that separation that Jesus took upon Himself all of our sins, all of our wrongs and disobediences, and because of that GOD could not look upon it. GOD had to put away His Son so that our sin did not contaminate, pollute, corrupt Himself. True separation was experienced for the first time by the two who did not deserve it in order to allow you and I to be able to experience an eternity in heaven in their presence.
It was in that timeframe, that separation, that Jesus Christ -- who had already been scourged, mocked, beaten, crowned with a crown of thorns, and was in such pain from all of that – that He paid the final bit of the price. He had gone through the physical part of the price, now this was the spiritual portion. If He’d gone through just the rest of it that would not have been enough. It had to be true separation for the price to have been paid for you and I. In that separation is when Jesus experienced what hell was like and what we would go through when we die without Him. That’s because hell is an eternity without GOD, love, peace, forgiveness, comfort, joy, laughter, acceptance, or any chance of escape. Jesus felt that separation and that’s when He paid the price in full. When He said, “It is finished!” and gave up His soul/spirit, the price was paid in full; it was “finished”.
That’s why neither John the Baptist, nor any other mere mortal, could have paid the price for our sins. John, having never experienced true union with GOD the Father, could never have known that separation. John may have understood intellectually what it meant, but his soul could never have experienced what it was like to have had his soul separated from GOD because as a human his soul was never there to start with. His body may have died and his soul/spirit may have separated from it, but since John never spent the part of his life prior to becoming human as – and this is the important thing – part of GOD, John could not have experience the separation as did Jesus Christ because of John 1:1-3:
“In the beginning was the Word [Jesus Christ], and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD. The same was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”Jesus Christ was “In the beginning…. With GOD”. That’s why John the Baptist could not have been enough. Jesus Christ was with GOD and was GOD. Part GOD, part man; without which we could never have been saved.
Won’t you accept that great gift today?
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© 2016 Linda McKinney All Rights Reserved
Friday, January 31, 2014
Difficult Questions: Moved from my forums
A few years ago I did a series of what most folks consider "Difficult Questions" covering biblical questions that people find hard to answer. I don't like my forums where they are currently stored, so I thought I'd send them over here to make things easier. I may continue the series here, we'll see.
The questions with their answers are as follows:
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1) "Where did Cain, Enoch and Seth get their wives? Did they marry their own sisters?"
My Answer:
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."
1) Cain could not have found his wife among his sisters because he was already away from his family when he married.
2) It says that Cain "dwelt in the land of Nod" which apparently already had people there because it was "east of Eden" and had a wife for Cain.
3) God says that we are not supposed to commit incest (although several people in the Bible did). In Leviticus 20:17, it states (KJV) "And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it [is] a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity."
4) In James 1:17, it says about God, "the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (God does not change), then He thinks the same about incest today as He did back then, and He thought the same about incest in Genesis as He does today.
Cain got his wife in the land of Nod, as it states in the Bible.
The Bible traces the lineage of Adam and Eve because Adam was the first man. It does not say Adam was the only man. The tracing of Adam and Eve's descendants establishes the lineage of Jesus and that establishes the lineage of Israel as the blessing of all the people of the earth (Gen. 26:4b). The blessing of all the nations of the earth is Jesus Christ and His dying on the cross for all of us.
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2) II Peter 3:8 says: "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
I was once asked how that can be true? How does God see time? Can you answer these questions?
My Answer: "Clean off your dining room table. You can see every part of the tabletop and you can see the beginning and the end. You can see it side to side and you can see every scratch (if any) and every ding (if any). That's the way God sees time.
God sees the beginning and the end ("the Alpha and the Omega") and He sees it fully. That's how God sees time. It's all the same to him: One second to one thousand years all visible to him at all the times.
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3) According to the Bible, is there such a thing as predestination, or do we have free will in all things?
My Answer: Predestination is not biblical. God gave us free will. It says so multiple times in the Bible. We have free will.
If you read the second difficult question about how GOD sees time, you can relate this to that. When GOD sees time, HE also sees the possibilities of our choices. Imagine it this way,
Think of a bird's feet. Some of them have four toes (some three toes) going forward, one going backward. Imagine your life is a bunch of bird feet, the backward toe of the next foot touching one of the toes of the first foot. So, two touches foot one's third toe, foot three touches foot two at the first toe, foot four touches foot three at the fourth toe... etc.
If you start at your birth and you go forward making decisions and choosing which way to go, where to turn, what is right and wrong for your life, you have gone along one of the "toes" going forward (or sometimes backward). Maybe you are choosing to go along toe one, or toe two.
When you compare that path to the path that GOD would have had you choose, you may have travelled along HIS path maybe for a while in your life, maybe never, maybe -- from adulthood on at least -- almost always if not always.
If you colored the path GOD would have you travel red, then the path you actually travelled blue, most of us would see that our path is not always on the line with GOD's path. Some of us try to make it close, some of us don't believe in GOD, so don't worry about following HIS path.
Either way, because GOD sees the beginning of time and the end of time at all times, HE can also see the results of each of the choices each of us makes. HE knows what our choices MAY be, HE knows what the results of those choices will be, and HE knows what the results would have been IF we had followed HIS perfect will.
That's not predestination, that's free will, but GOD knows the results of whatever you do before you do it, but HE doesn't make you do it. HE lets you choose, HE lets you make your mistakes, HE lets you do what you want to do, but HE knows what your life is going to be like because of those choices. HE knows what your life COULD HAVE been like if you had followed HIS path. But HE doesn't force you.
HE allows you to make your mistakes. HE allows you to be wrong. HE allows you to decide to love HIM or not. That's how much HE loves you. HE wants you to choose HIM, but HE loves you enough to let you have your own will, your own choices. Even if you suffer the consequences of those choices.
GOD loves you enough to NOT make you do the right thing. HE loves you enough to let you CHOOSE to do the right thing.
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Question #4 is inspired by Rush Limbaugh. Some of you may have noticed that Rush Limbaugh says that Revelations does not fit into the Bible and should not be part of it. Some scholars and preachers agree with that, and that's probably where Rush got the idea.
4) "Does The Book of Revelations agree with and belong in the Bible?"
My Answer:
Does "The Book of Revelation" belong in the Bible, despite what Rush Limbaugh says?
I don't know where Rush got info about that. I have looked online for information against "The Book of Revelation" being in the Bible and I cannot find anything that would make me think he's got good info. I can't find anything that would support that idea. I looked, but maybe I didn't go to page 1,203 of the search engine results (don't count on that number being accurate, it's made up) to find the info Rush may have found and based his belief upon. I have no idea where he got that belief.
However, my info is that "The Book of Revelation" supports the other books of the Bible, stating similar things (wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc., when it comes to the physical world), Jesus is the Son of GOD, alive today and sitting at the Right hand of the Father, is beloved by GOD, etc. It supports the teachings of the other books of the Bible where it concerns the "Lambs Book of Life", where it concerns the return of Christ, where it concerns judgment. All of this and more are supported by the other books of the Bible, reiterated in "The Book of Revelation", and therefore, to the best of my knowledge, "The Book of Revelation" fits and belongs in the Bible.
Why Rush would say otherwise, I just don't know.
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5) How can a loving GOD send anyone to eternal punishment?
My Answer:
Answer: He DOESN'T.
Now, before you get your knickers in a twist, let me finish. He doesn't. People CHOOSE to be sent there.
How's that?
Well, GOD set the rules up a long time ago,
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD. The same was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:1-5)
Jesus Christ is the "Word" and he has been with his Father since before time and helped GOD create the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1-31). So the rules have been in place since before time began because GOD knew the plan, thus Jesus knew the plan. It was GOD's plan all along to offer a savior and the only one capable of being the sacrifice was Jesus Christ in human form (all the rest of us would have sinned and negated our own offering).
Remember how often he told his disciples that he would be crucified? (See Mark 8:31, Luke 9:22, Mark 14:8, et al) Christ knew he was to die for man's sins.
Now, remember that there are rules set in place. When you play a game of soccer and someone tells you the rules, you must obey those rules to win the game. There are refs who say when someone gets penalized and when someone scores. Assuming the refs are impartial, then the team who scores the most wins. Correct? Imagine if the refs scored Team A even if they didn't really score, and if the refs penalized Team B for no reason whatsoever. That would not be fair, would it?
Same holds true with going to heaven or hades. GOD set the rules in place a long time before you and I got here. We have to play by the rules in order to win the game. (Crude comparison, I know.) GOD sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for you and for me and for everyone who has ever been born. If GOD were going to change the rules midstream and say, "Well, I've changed my mind. Anyone can come in, and it doesn't matter if they know Jesus or not." Don't you think that would be unfair? Rules are rules, right? Otherwise soccer, cards, polo, sudoku would be something you would never play again because rules mean something.
Also, if GOD changed the rules midstream, it would mean negating His Son's sacrifice -- Christ's suffering on the cross would be for naught. GOD is not going to do that. All the sins of the world rested on His Son for a moment and at that moment GOD turned His eyes away from His Son for the first time ever (Jesus cried out, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Can't you imagine how much that hurt the Father of a suffering Son? GOD had to look away because He couldn't look upon all that sin. Separation for an instant, and then death. Jesus took your sins and died for them and GOD looked away and didn't help His Son in that moment of critical pain, agony, filth and separation. If GOD changed the rules and let us all into heaven because He loves us all, He would be undoing what Jesus Christ did for us and no one would be in heaven. Because without that sacrifice of a pure, sinless man there can be no eternity of forgiveness of sins.
Now, it is your choice to not accept Jesus. The Bible says, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD" (Romans 3:23) and that "For GOD so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) It's your choice to accept Jesus or reject him. Accept him and you get to go to heaven and you get to be in heaven with GOD and Jesus. Reject him -- your choice -- and you go to eternal condemnation.
GOD does not force you to do either. That's why we have free will. GOD calls you (you're reading this, aren't you?) and He wants you -- everyone -- to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but He won't force you to do so. If GOD doesn't force you to do so, then it's your choice to choose heaven or hades. Either way, it is eternity, so choose carefully.
I'll post more in the following posting.
Now for more of my posting:
What about things like Mormon "Baptism for the Dead", will that save anyone?
No. If you read that page, it says that "those who accept the gospel in the spirit world may qualify for entrance into God's kingdom".
First, "may qualify for entrance"? May? If baptism saves, and they're doing a baptism for the dead, then that's a guarantee, is it not? What's with this "may" business? If baptism does not save, thus guaranteeing entrance, then why bother?
Second, it doesn't say WHERE those folks are who are being offered baptism after they have been dead for however many years. Are they in hades already? If so, there's no escape. Are they somewhere else: purgatory or something similar? Where, and how does anyone escape the judgment of GOD and where He sends you, for that is what would be happening there.
Third, it doesn't say if how they're offered the gospel. It just says "those who accept the gospel" and I have never heard of a Mormon going to wherever those dead folks are on a mission trip and staying there long enough to win them over to Mormonism! So how do they hear the gospel?
Fourth, it says that, "each deceased soul has the personal choice to accept or reject it." How do they know here on earth when they're doing the "Baptisms for the Dead" which dead person accepted the teachings? Walkie talkies? Channeling? Who tells them which dead person said, "Okay. Yeah. I'll take you up on that offer?" Is it the Mormon missionary who is down there, and if so, what did the missionary do that was bad enough to condemn him as those folks are and will someone stand in for him or are his Mormon credentials enough to get him back out of there? If it's a Mormon missionary, can a house divided stand against itself (see Matthew 12:25 and Mark 3:25)? If he has sinned enough to be condemned, why would he be able to preach the gospel wherever those dead folks are, and who says he'd be good enough preacher to get them out of there since he's the same place for similar sins? Christ had no sin. When he preached to the dead in Paradise he was not in hades, he was in a place between heaven and hell that is no longer available because the pathway to heaven is now complete. (Paradise was a waiting place for those in the Old Testament times who believed in God but had no way to get to heaven because the pathway was not completed yet, via Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.) It could not hold Christ because he was the Son of GOD and had no sin, therefore his voluntary attendance to the folks in Paradise (the waiting place) was not condemnation and he left when GOD had planned for him to leave and completed the pathway. A sinful man could not do that; only Christ could.
Fifth, if they are baptizing dead people without knowing for certain that the dead person they are baptizing in absentia actually accepted the teachings, and they baptize even one person without knowing for certain that the dead person "accepted the gospel", does that not throw doubt on every person's post-death baptism? After all, that would let a bad person into their heaven, thus negating Christ's sacrifice, negating the whole Mormon teaching of having to accept their teachings, of having to do the works they teach.
Sixth, they quote 1 Corinthians 15:29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" to justify their teachings, but admit that it is a "rhetorical question". We all know that "rhetorical questions" are not to be answered. Also, given the context of the chapter, there were apparently some sects that were baptizing for the dead at the time that Paul was addressing and mocking. Paul was teaching that the resurrection happens, but not because anyone was baptized while dead, but because of that person accepting Jesus Christ while they were alive. Big difference.
Seventh, some studies also suggest about 1 Corinthians 15:29 that there was a word substitution in that verse, but if you look at the context of the verse in the chapter, it doesn't need to be a mistake to make the concept of baptizing for the dead an unacceptable, illogical doctrine. After all, would Paul mock something that was of GOD?
More in my next posting.
I've already touched on this but I must write a short response to the section Elder Petersen wrote.
To wit:
1) He states, "Jesus was a Personage of both spirit and flesh, like all of us." Elder Petersen forgets "SINLESS" personage UNLIKE the rest of us.
2) "When Jesus went to the realm of the dead, he was still himself, an individual...." Yes, BUT Jesus was also the SON OF GOD, not like us. He was there to do a job, not to wait for a way out.
3) "The dead—even those who died in the flood—also were intelligent persons..." Yes, but it isn't intelligence that saves anyone. A high IQ gets you nowhere. And it wasn't just those who died in the flood of Noah's day who were there: it was everyone from the Old Testament times who believed in GOD and GOD counted it for righteousness and gave them a chance to hear Christ preach to them so that they may believe in him and go to heaven after he had completed the path. "I am the resurrection and the life, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" (John 11:25) Christ said. It isn't via baptism after death that anyone gets there.
4) "These dead were so much in possession of their reason and their faculties that they could hear the gospel like men in the flesh although they lived in a world of spirits..." Yes, but they were listening to JESUS CHRIST, the SON OF GOD, not a mere mortal who wound up down there somehow, or not to someone alive on earth. Again: how would anyone on earth know who accepted the offer?
5) "Jesus taught them the gospel..." FINALLY! We agree on something!
6) "Having heard the gospel, they might accept it or reject it..." Yes, but JESUS was there preaching to them so he knew who accepted or rejected his offer of salvation. Any Mormons down there? Anyone with a walkie talkie? No? Then there is no way to know who said yes.
"Mormons are therefore very zealous about collecting and submitting the names of their ancestors..." They collect and submit more than the names of their ancestors. They do everyone's ancestors: including Jewish folks who don't want to be changed from their Judaism to Mormonism against their will.
What do they do about that? Do they ask the relatives of those they have on their next baptismal list if they think that their great-grandma would mind becoming a Mormon? No? They don't have the walkie talkies, so could they be acting against someone's wishes? Yes? I'm sorry, would that be considered a sin?
So their doctrine teaches them that they should do this as part of their works to get into heaven, but in doing so, they're forcing a conversion against someone else's will -- selfishness -- and that's a sin, so obeying their doctrine is a sin? Hmmm...
Caught in a Catch 22 in the Mormon religion. Condemned if you do, condemned if you don't. Can't win.
Now, who's going to heaven in Mormonism?
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6) We know that Jesus died so that everyone's sins can be forgiven. Everyone who asks and accepts Him as Lord and Savior has the promise in John 3:16, "that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (KJV). (Yes, Mormons to Muslims, Hindus to Atheists, Catholics to Pentacostals: everyone who asks and receives goes to heaven.) We know that He is the only one who could have died for our sins because He lived a sinless life and was the Son of God: fully qualified, unlike any of us.
My question is, when did the way to heaven get completed? This one is easy when you think about it.
My Answer: The path to heaven, if you recall, was started before God created the heavens and the earth (Ephesians 1:3-10 and elsewhere) because it was GOD's plan all along to do this for us. Then when Jesus and GOD were creating the earth (John 1:1-5) it was also ordained. It was prophesied in the Old Testament (Isaiah 52:13-53:12) that Jesus Christ would come to die for us. Christ's virgin birth (Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-80) and his sinless life (Hebrews 9:13-14) made Him the only one capable of dying for us because He was the only person ever born who had never sinned (Romans 3:23).
His spotless (sinless) life was a daily walk with GOD, His Father and it paved part of the pathway for us. Then His crucifixion on the cross (Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Matthew 27:1-66, Mark 15:1-47, Luke 23:1-56, John 19:1-42) to take away our sins and His three days dead preaching to those in "Paradise" (a waiting place for those in the Old Testament times who believed in the coming Messiah) (see Luke 23:43, AKA "Abraham's bosom"; also Ephesians 4:9-10, Mark 16:19-31) and His resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10, Mark 16:1-20, Luke 24:1-53, John 20:1-21:25) were part of the pathway, too.
All of those steps allowed Christ to be the Redeemer, but the pathway to heaven was not completed -- not even for those He preached to in Paradise (AKA "Abraham's bosom") -- until He ascended into heaven, untouched by hands of anyone who had sinned (John 20:17) because it was only after Christ's first ascension into heaven that the pathway was completed. After His first ascension into heaven, where He completed the pathway for us, where He was received of His Father, where He established the right for our forgiven eternal souls to be allowed into heaven via the pathway He completed (planned before the earth was formed) then He could come back down and be touched by His followers (Matthew 28:9) and go back and forth for a while until His final ascension recorded in Luke 24:49-53.
Thus the pathway is completed not just by His death, or resurrection, but because He went as a sinless man, cleansed after taking all of our sins upon Himself, to the grave and rose again, but it was the first ascension that completed the pathway for us.
IF Christ had been touched prior to his first ascension by a person who had sinned, it would have all been cancelled out. Sin cannot travel to heaven. Sin would have contaminated Christ and He would have died in vain.
That's something to think about, is it not?
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In the New Testament, we see that Jesus Christ had a crowd of people who followed Him and went to where He was to see and ask Him to do miracles, to hear Him preach, to just see what all the fuss was about. He was reviled by the Sadducees and Pharisees for eating with "publicans and sinners" (Mark 2:16). A "publican" is not an early REpublican; he's a tax collector (an early Democrat). So, considering that "sinners and publicans" were good enough for Jesus, should you be friends with and "hang with" "sinners and publicans"?
My Answer: If you read the Psalms of David, the Book of Proverbs and elsewhere in the Bible, you can see that it is not a wise thing to hang with liars. You should choose your friends carefully and you should be rigid in your standards as to who you regard as your friends.
Friends should be people of godly character, not drunks, neither liars nor deceivers, steadfast and strong in the LORD. This is biblical and should be a guideline for accepting someone into your life as a friend.
Acquaintances, on the other hand, you may have because if you don't you cannot witness to them. But do not hang out with people who won't be good influences over you, or whose reputation will besmirch your own. "A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold." (Proverbs 22:1)
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So that's the start of the "Difficult Questions" series. What thinks you? Agree? Disagree? We'll see what happens here.
Until the next Difficult Question, GOD Bless!
The questions with their answers are as follows:
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1) "Where did Cain, Enoch and Seth get their wives? Did they marry their own sisters?"
My Answer:
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."
1) Cain could not have found his wife among his sisters because he was already away from his family when he married.
2) It says that Cain "dwelt in the land of Nod" which apparently already had people there because it was "east of Eden" and had a wife for Cain.
3) God says that we are not supposed to commit incest (although several people in the Bible did). In Leviticus 20:17, it states (KJV) "And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it [is] a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity."
4) In James 1:17, it says about God, "the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (God does not change), then He thinks the same about incest today as He did back then, and He thought the same about incest in Genesis as He does today.
Cain got his wife in the land of Nod, as it states in the Bible.
The Bible traces the lineage of Adam and Eve because Adam was the first man. It does not say Adam was the only man. The tracing of Adam and Eve's descendants establishes the lineage of Jesus and that establishes the lineage of Israel as the blessing of all the people of the earth (Gen. 26:4b). The blessing of all the nations of the earth is Jesus Christ and His dying on the cross for all of us.
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2) II Peter 3:8 says: "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
I was once asked how that can be true? How does God see time? Can you answer these questions?
My Answer: "Clean off your dining room table. You can see every part of the tabletop and you can see the beginning and the end. You can see it side to side and you can see every scratch (if any) and every ding (if any). That's the way God sees time.
God sees the beginning and the end ("the Alpha and the Omega") and He sees it fully. That's how God sees time. It's all the same to him: One second to one thousand years all visible to him at all the times.
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3) According to the Bible, is there such a thing as predestination, or do we have free will in all things?
My Answer: Predestination is not biblical. God gave us free will. It says so multiple times in the Bible. We have free will.
If you read the second difficult question about how GOD sees time, you can relate this to that. When GOD sees time, HE also sees the possibilities of our choices. Imagine it this way,
Think of a bird's feet. Some of them have four toes (some three toes) going forward, one going backward. Imagine your life is a bunch of bird feet, the backward toe of the next foot touching one of the toes of the first foot. So, two touches foot one's third toe, foot three touches foot two at the first toe, foot four touches foot three at the fourth toe... etc.
If you start at your birth and you go forward making decisions and choosing which way to go, where to turn, what is right and wrong for your life, you have gone along one of the "toes" going forward (or sometimes backward). Maybe you are choosing to go along toe one, or toe two.
When you compare that path to the path that GOD would have had you choose, you may have travelled along HIS path maybe for a while in your life, maybe never, maybe -- from adulthood on at least -- almost always if not always.
If you colored the path GOD would have you travel red, then the path you actually travelled blue, most of us would see that our path is not always on the line with GOD's path. Some of us try to make it close, some of us don't believe in GOD, so don't worry about following HIS path.
Either way, because GOD sees the beginning of time and the end of time at all times, HE can also see the results of each of the choices each of us makes. HE knows what our choices MAY be, HE knows what the results of those choices will be, and HE knows what the results would have been IF we had followed HIS perfect will.
That's not predestination, that's free will, but GOD knows the results of whatever you do before you do it, but HE doesn't make you do it. HE lets you choose, HE lets you make your mistakes, HE lets you do what you want to do, but HE knows what your life is going to be like because of those choices. HE knows what your life COULD HAVE been like if you had followed HIS path. But HE doesn't force you.
HE allows you to make your mistakes. HE allows you to be wrong. HE allows you to decide to love HIM or not. That's how much HE loves you. HE wants you to choose HIM, but HE loves you enough to let you have your own will, your own choices. Even if you suffer the consequences of those choices.
GOD loves you enough to NOT make you do the right thing. HE loves you enough to let you CHOOSE to do the right thing.
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Question #4 is inspired by Rush Limbaugh. Some of you may have noticed that Rush Limbaugh says that Revelations does not fit into the Bible and should not be part of it. Some scholars and preachers agree with that, and that's probably where Rush got the idea.
4) "Does The Book of Revelations agree with and belong in the Bible?"
My Answer:
Does "The Book of Revelation" belong in the Bible, despite what Rush Limbaugh says?
I don't know where Rush got info about that. I have looked online for information against "The Book of Revelation" being in the Bible and I cannot find anything that would make me think he's got good info. I can't find anything that would support that idea. I looked, but maybe I didn't go to page 1,203 of the search engine results (don't count on that number being accurate, it's made up) to find the info Rush may have found and based his belief upon. I have no idea where he got that belief.
However, my info is that "The Book of Revelation" supports the other books of the Bible, stating similar things (wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc., when it comes to the physical world), Jesus is the Son of GOD, alive today and sitting at the Right hand of the Father, is beloved by GOD, etc. It supports the teachings of the other books of the Bible where it concerns the "Lambs Book of Life", where it concerns the return of Christ, where it concerns judgment. All of this and more are supported by the other books of the Bible, reiterated in "The Book of Revelation", and therefore, to the best of my knowledge, "The Book of Revelation" fits and belongs in the Bible.
Why Rush would say otherwise, I just don't know.
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5) How can a loving GOD send anyone to eternal punishment?
My Answer:
Answer: He DOESN'T.
Now, before you get your knickers in a twist, let me finish. He doesn't. People CHOOSE to be sent there.
How's that?
Well, GOD set the rules up a long time ago,
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD. The same was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:1-5)
Jesus Christ is the "Word" and he has been with his Father since before time and helped GOD create the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1-31). So the rules have been in place since before time began because GOD knew the plan, thus Jesus knew the plan. It was GOD's plan all along to offer a savior and the only one capable of being the sacrifice was Jesus Christ in human form (all the rest of us would have sinned and negated our own offering).
Remember how often he told his disciples that he would be crucified? (See Mark 8:31, Luke 9:22, Mark 14:8, et al) Christ knew he was to die for man's sins.
Now, remember that there are rules set in place. When you play a game of soccer and someone tells you the rules, you must obey those rules to win the game. There are refs who say when someone gets penalized and when someone scores. Assuming the refs are impartial, then the team who scores the most wins. Correct? Imagine if the refs scored Team A even if they didn't really score, and if the refs penalized Team B for no reason whatsoever. That would not be fair, would it?
Same holds true with going to heaven or hades. GOD set the rules in place a long time before you and I got here. We have to play by the rules in order to win the game. (Crude comparison, I know.) GOD sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for you and for me and for everyone who has ever been born. If GOD were going to change the rules midstream and say, "Well, I've changed my mind. Anyone can come in, and it doesn't matter if they know Jesus or not." Don't you think that would be unfair? Rules are rules, right? Otherwise soccer, cards, polo, sudoku would be something you would never play again because rules mean something.
Also, if GOD changed the rules midstream, it would mean negating His Son's sacrifice -- Christ's suffering on the cross would be for naught. GOD is not going to do that. All the sins of the world rested on His Son for a moment and at that moment GOD turned His eyes away from His Son for the first time ever (Jesus cried out, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Can't you imagine how much that hurt the Father of a suffering Son? GOD had to look away because He couldn't look upon all that sin. Separation for an instant, and then death. Jesus took your sins and died for them and GOD looked away and didn't help His Son in that moment of critical pain, agony, filth and separation. If GOD changed the rules and let us all into heaven because He loves us all, He would be undoing what Jesus Christ did for us and no one would be in heaven. Because without that sacrifice of a pure, sinless man there can be no eternity of forgiveness of sins.
Now, it is your choice to not accept Jesus. The Bible says, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD" (Romans 3:23) and that "For GOD so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) It's your choice to accept Jesus or reject him. Accept him and you get to go to heaven and you get to be in heaven with GOD and Jesus. Reject him -- your choice -- and you go to eternal condemnation.
GOD does not force you to do either. That's why we have free will. GOD calls you (you're reading this, aren't you?) and He wants you -- everyone -- to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but He won't force you to do so. If GOD doesn't force you to do so, then it's your choice to choose heaven or hades. Either way, it is eternity, so choose carefully.
I'll post more in the following posting.
Now for more of my posting:
What about things like Mormon "Baptism for the Dead", will that save anyone?
No. If you read that page, it says that "those who accept the gospel in the spirit world may qualify for entrance into God's kingdom".
First, "may qualify for entrance"? May? If baptism saves, and they're doing a baptism for the dead, then that's a guarantee, is it not? What's with this "may" business? If baptism does not save, thus guaranteeing entrance, then why bother?
Second, it doesn't say WHERE those folks are who are being offered baptism after they have been dead for however many years. Are they in hades already? If so, there's no escape. Are they somewhere else: purgatory or something similar? Where, and how does anyone escape the judgment of GOD and where He sends you, for that is what would be happening there.
Third, it doesn't say if how they're offered the gospel. It just says "those who accept the gospel" and I have never heard of a Mormon going to wherever those dead folks are on a mission trip and staying there long enough to win them over to Mormonism! So how do they hear the gospel?
Fourth, it says that, "each deceased soul has the personal choice to accept or reject it." How do they know here on earth when they're doing the "Baptisms for the Dead" which dead person accepted the teachings? Walkie talkies? Channeling? Who tells them which dead person said, "Okay. Yeah. I'll take you up on that offer?" Is it the Mormon missionary who is down there, and if so, what did the missionary do that was bad enough to condemn him as those folks are and will someone stand in for him or are his Mormon credentials enough to get him back out of there? If it's a Mormon missionary, can a house divided stand against itself (see Matthew 12:25 and Mark 3:25)? If he has sinned enough to be condemned, why would he be able to preach the gospel wherever those dead folks are, and who says he'd be good enough preacher to get them out of there since he's the same place for similar sins? Christ had no sin. When he preached to the dead in Paradise he was not in hades, he was in a place between heaven and hell that is no longer available because the pathway to heaven is now complete. (Paradise was a waiting place for those in the Old Testament times who believed in God but had no way to get to heaven because the pathway was not completed yet, via Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.) It could not hold Christ because he was the Son of GOD and had no sin, therefore his voluntary attendance to the folks in Paradise (the waiting place) was not condemnation and he left when GOD had planned for him to leave and completed the pathway. A sinful man could not do that; only Christ could.
Fifth, if they are baptizing dead people without knowing for certain that the dead person they are baptizing in absentia actually accepted the teachings, and they baptize even one person without knowing for certain that the dead person "accepted the gospel", does that not throw doubt on every person's post-death baptism? After all, that would let a bad person into their heaven, thus negating Christ's sacrifice, negating the whole Mormon teaching of having to accept their teachings, of having to do the works they teach.
Sixth, they quote 1 Corinthians 15:29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" to justify their teachings, but admit that it is a "rhetorical question". We all know that "rhetorical questions" are not to be answered. Also, given the context of the chapter, there were apparently some sects that were baptizing for the dead at the time that Paul was addressing and mocking. Paul was teaching that the resurrection happens, but not because anyone was baptized while dead, but because of that person accepting Jesus Christ while they were alive. Big difference.
Seventh, some studies also suggest about 1 Corinthians 15:29 that there was a word substitution in that verse, but if you look at the context of the verse in the chapter, it doesn't need to be a mistake to make the concept of baptizing for the dead an unacceptable, illogical doctrine. After all, would Paul mock something that was of GOD?
More in my next posting.
I've already touched on this but I must write a short response to the section Elder Petersen wrote.
To wit:
1) He states, "Jesus was a Personage of both spirit and flesh, like all of us." Elder Petersen forgets "SINLESS" personage UNLIKE the rest of us.
2) "When Jesus went to the realm of the dead, he was still himself, an individual...." Yes, BUT Jesus was also the SON OF GOD, not like us. He was there to do a job, not to wait for a way out.
3) "The dead—even those who died in the flood—also were intelligent persons..." Yes, but it isn't intelligence that saves anyone. A high IQ gets you nowhere. And it wasn't just those who died in the flood of Noah's day who were there: it was everyone from the Old Testament times who believed in GOD and GOD counted it for righteousness and gave them a chance to hear Christ preach to them so that they may believe in him and go to heaven after he had completed the path. "I am the resurrection and the life, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" (John 11:25) Christ said. It isn't via baptism after death that anyone gets there.
4) "These dead were so much in possession of their reason and their faculties that they could hear the gospel like men in the flesh although they lived in a world of spirits..." Yes, but they were listening to JESUS CHRIST, the SON OF GOD, not a mere mortal who wound up down there somehow, or not to someone alive on earth. Again: how would anyone on earth know who accepted the offer?
5) "Jesus taught them the gospel..." FINALLY! We agree on something!
6) "Having heard the gospel, they might accept it or reject it..." Yes, but JESUS was there preaching to them so he knew who accepted or rejected his offer of salvation. Any Mormons down there? Anyone with a walkie talkie? No? Then there is no way to know who said yes.
"Mormons are therefore very zealous about collecting and submitting the names of their ancestors..." They collect and submit more than the names of their ancestors. They do everyone's ancestors: including Jewish folks who don't want to be changed from their Judaism to Mormonism against their will.
What do they do about that? Do they ask the relatives of those they have on their next baptismal list if they think that their great-grandma would mind becoming a Mormon? No? They don't have the walkie talkies, so could they be acting against someone's wishes? Yes? I'm sorry, would that be considered a sin?
So their doctrine teaches them that they should do this as part of their works to get into heaven, but in doing so, they're forcing a conversion against someone else's will -- selfishness -- and that's a sin, so obeying their doctrine is a sin? Hmmm...
Caught in a Catch 22 in the Mormon religion. Condemned if you do, condemned if you don't. Can't win.
Now, who's going to heaven in Mormonism?
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6) We know that Jesus died so that everyone's sins can be forgiven. Everyone who asks and accepts Him as Lord and Savior has the promise in John 3:16, "that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (KJV). (Yes, Mormons to Muslims, Hindus to Atheists, Catholics to Pentacostals: everyone who asks and receives goes to heaven.) We know that He is the only one who could have died for our sins because He lived a sinless life and was the Son of God: fully qualified, unlike any of us.
My question is, when did the way to heaven get completed? This one is easy when you think about it.
My Answer: The path to heaven, if you recall, was started before God created the heavens and the earth (Ephesians 1:3-10 and elsewhere) because it was GOD's plan all along to do this for us. Then when Jesus and GOD were creating the earth (John 1:1-5) it was also ordained. It was prophesied in the Old Testament (Isaiah 52:13-53:12) that Jesus Christ would come to die for us. Christ's virgin birth (Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-80) and his sinless life (Hebrews 9:13-14) made Him the only one capable of dying for us because He was the only person ever born who had never sinned (Romans 3:23).
His spotless (sinless) life was a daily walk with GOD, His Father and it paved part of the pathway for us. Then His crucifixion on the cross (Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Matthew 27:1-66, Mark 15:1-47, Luke 23:1-56, John 19:1-42) to take away our sins and His three days dead preaching to those in "Paradise" (a waiting place for those in the Old Testament times who believed in the coming Messiah) (see Luke 23:43, AKA "Abraham's bosom"; also Ephesians 4:9-10, Mark 16:19-31) and His resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10, Mark 16:1-20, Luke 24:1-53, John 20:1-21:25) were part of the pathway, too.
All of those steps allowed Christ to be the Redeemer, but the pathway to heaven was not completed -- not even for those He preached to in Paradise (AKA "Abraham's bosom") -- until He ascended into heaven, untouched by hands of anyone who had sinned (John 20:17) because it was only after Christ's first ascension into heaven that the pathway was completed. After His first ascension into heaven, where He completed the pathway for us, where He was received of His Father, where He established the right for our forgiven eternal souls to be allowed into heaven via the pathway He completed (planned before the earth was formed) then He could come back down and be touched by His followers (Matthew 28:9) and go back and forth for a while until His final ascension recorded in Luke 24:49-53.
Thus the pathway is completed not just by His death, or resurrection, but because He went as a sinless man, cleansed after taking all of our sins upon Himself, to the grave and rose again, but it was the first ascension that completed the pathway for us.
IF Christ had been touched prior to his first ascension by a person who had sinned, it would have all been cancelled out. Sin cannot travel to heaven. Sin would have contaminated Christ and He would have died in vain.
That's something to think about, is it not?
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In the New Testament, we see that Jesus Christ had a crowd of people who followed Him and went to where He was to see and ask Him to do miracles, to hear Him preach, to just see what all the fuss was about. He was reviled by the Sadducees and Pharisees for eating with "publicans and sinners" (Mark 2:16). A "publican" is not an early REpublican; he's a tax collector (an early Democrat). So, considering that "sinners and publicans" were good enough for Jesus, should you be friends with and "hang with" "sinners and publicans"?
My Answer: If you read the Psalms of David, the Book of Proverbs and elsewhere in the Bible, you can see that it is not a wise thing to hang with liars. You should choose your friends carefully and you should be rigid in your standards as to who you regard as your friends.
Friends should be people of godly character, not drunks, neither liars nor deceivers, steadfast and strong in the LORD. This is biblical and should be a guideline for accepting someone into your life as a friend.
Acquaintances, on the other hand, you may have because if you don't you cannot witness to them. But do not hang out with people who won't be good influences over you, or whose reputation will besmirch your own. "A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold." (Proverbs 22:1)
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So that's the start of the "Difficult Questions" series. What thinks you? Agree? Disagree? We'll see what happens here.
Until the next Difficult Question, GOD Bless!
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